MicroConf On Air
SaaS Growth, Content Marketing + Measuring Success with Lars Lofgren
We are hosting Lars Lofgren, CEO of Quick Sprout, to answer listener questions about SaaS, growth, and more.
What is a good content marketing routine for a solo startup founder?
Considering aspects such as: publish on own site vs guest writing for popular publications in the niche, ratio of educational/promotional flavour, or any other tips that come to mind
- Kasra from FeedbackOnSite.co
How much time does it usually take to start ranking for keywords you target? How do you ensure that eventually happens? - Tony w/ Cloud Forecast
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Automatically Generated Transcript:
We're live. Welcome to today's episode of MicroComp on air as always. I am your host, Rob walling. As every Wednesday at 1:00 PM, Eastern 10:00 AM Pacific, we live stream for about 30 minutes and we cover topics related to building and growing ambitious SAS startups that bring us freedom and purpose and allow us to value and maintain healthy relationships.
We believe that showing up every day and shipping that next feature, next piece of marketing copy or closing your next sale is a way to build a sustainable company. So thanks again for joining me today. It's been a couple of weeks last week was Thanksgiving in the U S. And so we, I gave producer Zander the day off.
And of course, it doesn't make sense for me to get on here and try to do it without the expert to lineage of, of producers, Andrew and his production. So tryptofan attic. I think it's, to crypto fanatic, do we have a typo in my lower third for those listening on the podcast?
Welcome every Thursday morning, we air these episodes on, the MicroComp podcast. You can head to microcuff podcast.com or search for microcuff in any pod catcher. And you can. Here are these here? These, these episodes producers, Andrew says, Tiffin is the chemical in Turkey makes you sleepy. That's right.
So I'm a tryptofan addict because things and all that. thanks. Thanks for that. Producer Zander got a great show too. I'm super excited to bring on a first time guest to MicroComp on air, but not a first time guest to the microcosm world. Mr. Lars Lofgren is a many time MicroComp speaker. He's also a tiny seed mentor and all around good guy.
He is the CEO of QuickSprout, which you can check email@example.com. He's a former director of growth at, I will teach you to be rich, where he worked with Ramit Sethi, and he ran growth for Kissmetrics and Lara's specialty is, has been content marketing and SEO for years and years. And he's one of the OJI.
Content SEO people that I heard about back in the day, if you recall, Kissmetrics blog was the leading blog. It was the example everyone looked to in our space in terms of a blog that was driving a lot of traffic, a lot of engagement. And just something that we, I think a lot of us tried to model our own content strategies.
That, and Laura's was the, essentially the man behind that, that effort. And so with that, I'm going to welcome mr. Lars Lofgren to the show. How's it going, sir? Hey, Rob, it's good to be here. Yeah, thanks, man. Good to chat with you again, Lars and I have known each other for years. I don't know. What do we think we met 2012, 2013, something like that?
Yeah. One of the really or micro cops in Vegas when I was actually living in Vegas, which is a whole other story every time. And every time we came to Vegas, I'd see you and be like, Hey, still like in Vegas. Cause you no, I can't stand it. Yeah.
Yeah, yes. It's a much better fit for my overall, immensely sunny disposition. yeah. Yeah, totally. when folks ask me about you, because it's something that a lot of people don't realize is we see some kind of more, I'll say celebrities, but it's just people who are popular, who either have their own podcasts or their own personal brand or their blog, or they could do a lot of podcast interviews.
And we just hear their names, a lot folks, you and I know and know I've spoken with at my recom, Jason Cohen, a heat and shot. Dan Martell, they're big names in the space. You have chosen not to do that. I think intentionally chop to do it in the success behind you, but you're an understated, like you're a tactician and you get in and you just wreck shit.
You get it done. You grow big things big really quickly, but you haven't been, I think, I am immensely self promotional or building like a personal brand. Was that Benadryl pretty deliberate choice on your part? Yeah, I think it's a, for a little while I entertained it. it gives, you can obviously do a lot of things with your career and you can, whatever you build, just having that personal brand and audience, like you can just get started so much faster, right?
It's there's so many advantages to it. And most of the companies that I was involved in and built marketing programs around, like there were personal, really heavy, really intense personal brands that were the foundation that we ended up launching off of. So I've seen that I've know exactly how that works, what it can do for a company or whatever someone's trying to accomplish.
But at the end of the day, I just, it's not right. I like the, I want to drive revenue. I want to go build stuff. I don't want to like, just run that and speaking. Circuit, I'm happy to do it. If people find it helpful and I get an invite, but like grinding that out and playing that game.
It's not that it's a bad game. It's just a different game. That is not as good as totally. Yeah. It's just not, it's just not your thing. And for, folks at home listening, you've worked with Neil Patel and he Shaw and Ramit Sethi and others, and. yeah, you've seen it from the inside.
That's the thing, man. I was on Twitter. That was probably about a month or two ago. And I, I just keep seeing the, Hey, build an audience before you build your product. And I think that's an amazing advice for info products. if I'm going to sell a course or a book or any of that stuff or a coaching, I'm going to, I know people got to know and trust me all that thing.
If I'm going to build a SAS set from the ground up and I don't already have a personal audience. I just don't think it's worth the time, and when I look at people like you and Ruben Gamez, and frankly like 80 or 90% of the SAS apps that I see get into the seven or eight figures, they don't build an audience from the start.
They might build a launch list. You build an interest list in the app, but it's not about the person, it's not about the story. it's about blocking and tackling, right? it's paid ads, it's content, it's SEO, it's cold email, it's sales. It's you know, all the stuff that you do to scale an app, And I just don't, I have enjoyed watching you succeed without having to, again, start a podcast or be a big personality, And it's true. I agree with all that. in fact, if you go to the personal brand route, Some businesses, you learn a lot of good lessons and it feeds into it really well. consulting, if you want to write books, info products, certainly like they tend to gel and actually are almost required. but for other businesses you learn a lot of bad habits and you end up, it forces you to go around.
That's not congruent with what the business model really needs a long-term. and I do see a lot of people learn those bad habits and then the business suffers later for it. SAS doesn't need any of the typical. personal brand stuff. It's nice. If you have it create early days can be faster, but there's, if you don't have it in, you're considering building that stuff from scratch, honestly, there's way more effective ways to get your first five customers, your first 10 customers to get the ball rolling.
And if you do that kind of the non-scalable direct route, you're actually going to learn way more about your Mar market. What the business needs and you're going to get a much healthier foundation. cause I have seen businesses go sideways because they've leaned on the personal branding and the audience love too much and they ended up delaying some really core, fundamental problems that kinda nipped them later.
Yep. Very cool. let's dig in. We've got a couple of, first I got a comment from mr. Justin Jackson. He says, Lara's miss arguing with you at the bar smiley face. So I'm sure he gets that. And then I have a question from from feedback on site.co and he says, It's a bit of a long question. So I'll read it.
He says, what is a good content marketing routine for a solo startup founder? And then he adds, some, additional information thinking like considering aspects, like publishing on your own site versus guest posting for popular publications in the niche. And I would even add versus. Posting on medium.
Like a lot of people are doing these days, the ratio of educational to promotional flavor or any other tips that come to mind. So let's start with that. Maybe with the first general thoughts you have on as a solo founder, which a lot of folks, solo founder with maybe a contractor or two or solo founder with no guarantees.
that's what a lot of folks watching this are thinking, what are your thoughts today on how to build that up? Yeah, so I'm going to, my opinions or my method. There's multiple ways to win in this game, but I'll give you a few quick tips that I would do personally. first is fuck medium.
I'd never posted anything on medium. I never want to post anything on medium. I want nothing to do with that entire site. In my opinion, infuse the entire point of content marketing. You want to go play a social network viral game, go play on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or whatever, and go actually play that game.
Medium is this like weird hybrid where you get all the work at content marketing, but like none of the longterm benefit and you get this ephemeral, like social network type hops. So then the ROI and the content, it's just really wonky. But anyway, that's my opinion. Fuck medium. I don't like it at all. but if I was, let's say I had some SAS startup that I was just trying to be off the ground.
We had some paying customers trying to, and I was committed to content marketing. the first thing I tell people is. Only do content marketing. If you like, really love it. And you as a founder, have a deep passion for creating that type of content. because content is content. Marketing is a longterm game.
It takes years and years to pay off. You will never feel the payoff until you forget about it. And then look back after a few years and you're like, wow, this really is helping the business. so if you don't stick with it, you're never going to get there. So if you feel like you have to do content marketing, and that's why you're getting into content marketing, then you should probably go do something else.
This also applies to the type of content that you're considering, right? there's podcasts, there's con there's actual blog posts. There's YouTube videos. All of these mediums are very valid and can work exceptionally well. The key, whether or not it actually ends up helping the business, especially for a solo or early stage, like bootstraps startup of some kind is if the founder is actually dedicated to them, medium.
For the long-term. So if you are way more interested about videos, then go do YouTube. If you're way more interested about podcasts, go do that. don't force yourself into writing blog posts when you really want to do something else or vice versa. And then, so let's say you checked all those boxes. Like you're committed to content.
You don't care if you ever like, see the results, you just feel like it's important and you enjoy doing it. And then you also enjoy the actual, No, whatever specific channel you're going into a good starting cadence is published something once a week. Make it high quality, try to talk to your customers directly, prospects folks in your market.
And so the, like the evergreen questions that, they're going to have this year and they're like, they have this year they're going to have next year. So the content is not going to really decay really fast. and then, yeah, just keep doing it week after week and try to get better at it. there's obviously a ton of nuance and tactics and secret, or maybe not secrets, but just like little tweaks and all that stuff.
But, the key is consistency and creating high value content over a long period of time, not getting distracted. Which a lot of folks do, they tend to quit six months in and that's not even enough to get started long game. Yeah. And in terms of, let's say someone did want to focus on building a blog or building a bunch of, Yeah.
And I'll just say with the blog, I didn't want essays. is it true in your experience that today longer content Google is valuing that more than it used to? Yeah. as a general rule, there are exceptions to this. The main thing I always go back to is search intent. So every little keyword is a very unique funnel where the people plugging in that keyword have a different set of expectations.
Sometimes people really want the crazy in-depth. Just endless amounts of content on that subject. You want to go deep other times, they just want the quick answer. And then for you to get out of the way, it's like everyone, you guys now it cliche too. When you go to a recipe site, you get this long story about their grandma and where they're at.
The recipe came from and no one really cares about that shit. Like they just want the recipe and then to get back to cooking and, there's places for that content and you do need some authority and you need to add value on the page, but you can do that in a way.
That's not getting in the way of. What people are actually looking for. So it's very keyword dependent and I always go to the keyword itself, see what people are looking for, what other pages are ranking. and then I back out from there. Sometimes it's nice and short. Sometimes you want to go really long.
without additional information as a starting rule, I always like to go in with roughly 2000 words. You can always add more. You can always cut if you have a really good reason, but. If you don't have a reason to do one or the other, then start at 2000 and go from there. Got it. And I want to call something out that you and I have talked about several times, but a listener may not have picked up on it in your mind.
Content marketing is all about SEO. It's much less about the social and I'm going to put it on Twitter and it's content cop you're right. that's what Kissmetrics the blog was about. That's what the Ramit Sethi stuff. that's what you're doing today, right? Is this evergreen, I want a ton of organic search traffic on a monthly basis.
Yeah, we, we actively do not promote any of our blog posts like currently today, Twitter accounts with Facebook accounts, We don't have any of this shit. I don't even know if we actually have a sprout Twitter account or maybe some other user has it. I don't even know, and I don't even care.
back in the day, you can do basic stuff. if you have a company and you have a approved. Pretty well-established SAS company. You have a whole marketing team. Should they be emailing your users or marketing list about a new blog posts? Yeah, probably one in the early days.
When you just gotta be like scrappy and super lean. I don't worry about that stuff at all. Like it's all, is it's all SEO backwards. So I'm now thinking about trying to like, create like a bunch of noise in the space and it's not really like thought leadership. It's what are the keywords?
What keywords can I rank for? And, how do I build a site that's powerful enough in order to rank for those keywords. And so it's always keyword backwards. And so if you were to take a keyword and search for it in Google, a key phrase, That you want to rank for a search word and Google, and a bunch of the top ranking posts are really long.
Would that influence your decision to go really long? Because Google is in essence choosing those as a general rule. Yes. There's always this balance between, you want to. You want to give that individual like keyword market, exactly what it wants. Like you don't want to go left when they want to go.
But you also have to differentiate yourself with what's already been done just enough. So there's that balance. And how far to differentiate when you know, comes down. it's very nuanced based on the actual keyword. And honestly, it's a lot of judgment calls.
You're like, we know this about this topic. We know we have all this other research and we've competed with all these other keywords in the same general category. We know people generally want to go this direction. And maybe because we have all that extra information and maybe we do a hard left.
And we totally break the norm. It goes super short when everybody else is going along. Other cases like, we don't really know about this market at all. It seems like people are, want the longer content that makes sense. Maybe start there and try to differentiate ourselves in a smaller way.
So it's, again, it is very topic and keyword based. and there's a lot of nuance, keyword, the keyword. Yep. And I think, the are to wrap up his question part of it, he said, what is the ratio of educational versus promotional or salesy content that you would put out if you were doing a blog?
And I was going to phrase it as, like, how do you think about it, Lars, in terms of top of funnel, mid middle of the funnel and bottom of the funnel content, if you're wet around QuickSprout or maybe on a SAS, a blog. Yeah. So as a general rule, start at the bottom of the funnel and work out. Because the bottom of the funnel, that's where all the revenue is.
if you had a I'm sure if you spend any time in this space, you've heard that rich, like stupid ROI stat around email, it's like email produces 42 X ROI or whatever ridiculous the percentage it is. And the only reason that's the case is because emails at the hump of the fucking funnel by people are already on your list.
They're already in your orbit. They're already aware of the problem. They're already. it has some trust in you and they're on your email list. So yeah, when you send them an email, do they respond and click through and buy yes. Cause they're all the way down. you can't compare the ROI to like Twitter or Facebook or something at the very top.
It's just different stages of SEO. Is generally further down the funnel compared to other channels, but there is also a range keyword to keyword. Some stuff is very direct. it's like product categories when people are searching for actual product categories, like dog food, then yeah. They are interested in purchasing dog food.
They're aware of the need. They're aware of the solution and they are looking for advice on how to make a purchase. Every business. Has some of those categories within Google now, depending on the size of the market and the category, sometimes it's super niche and sometimes it's, massive. but you always want to start with those really direct keywords.
And then you're always making these trade off considerations of how competitive is it? Like you're building a new CRM and you're going up against Salesforce, head to head. Are you going to get on the first page? Probably not. I hopefully you're right. The niche nature. You have a way to segment down your industry somewhat.
So you can get to some areas that are not as competitive and you can at least give them the running, which is generally on page one. And then from there you can build up your authority and expand and, get more coverage over time. But, and also go up the phone, every often. Yeah, you're going for super broad terms, stuff.
That's not even Directly related to your product. Like you might have an AB testing tool and that's your SAS product. You might start releasing marketing content on funnels and copywriting and conversions and going after all those topics, just because you need that broader awareness.
That's one step up from the purchase decision that takes a lot of money. A lot of time. It's generally pretty competitive because there's a lot more players in those categories. but when your business is at that stage, then sure. Yeah, go after it. Let's start at the bottom and leave the top of funnel stuff for later.
At least that's my preference. Cool. That's great advice. A couple of things I want to add to that too, in talking to Ruben Gamez founder of doc sketch, who you and I both know, he says that to find bottom of the funnel terms, go to Google AdWords and look at the cost per click. And usually the higher clicks, the higher cost per click is more towards the bottom of the funnel, because those are the ones that are actually converting to revenue.
The other thing is I wanted to give one example of if someone's never heard of this, these terms, top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of the funnel, imagine someone imagine you are a podcast recording software, like squad cash, right? They're a tiny seed company. A top of funnel might be, how do I start a podcast?
Middle funnel might be. how do I record my podcast or record how to record a podcast online? And then bottom of funnel might be squad cast versus competitor, or best podcast recording. You know what I mean? It's you're making their way down. Would you read those? The assessment. Yeah. Most, most upper categories, especially, they usually follow like a few like typical keyword, like templates, like it's the category, alternatives, categories, services, category tools, category there's five to 10 of these things that you see over and over again, a little Googling and any keyword tool you'll figure out which ones are the most popular, the fastest, and then go focus on those.
Very cool. All right. We have a question from Tony from a cloud forecast. He says, how much time does it usually take to start ranking for keywords you target? How do you ensure that eventually happens? Yeah, okay. It's been like days, weeks, months on just the how to ensure it happens. That's like my whole job right now.
But, as far as the initial timeline, is let's say, so you pick the keyword, you do a little Googling around and you figured out the search intent a little bit. You write a blog post, you think you have a good shot at ranking you publish. How long does it take before you make any decisions?
General rule of thumb. 90 days. so once you go live, don't even make it, you don't even really know where the post is going to land for 90 days. So you got to wait. Then after 90 days, you can see where it sits in the ranking. So just keep Googling that same keyword, usually just in an incognito window, and then just start going through the code search results.
there's ways to automate the stuff. if there's a bunch of keyword trackers out there, but you don't want to get fancy. And you want to see where you land. If you are on page one, that is fantastic. lucky you're off to the races and you can work on climbing, which is a whole other set of stuff you can do, but let's say you're like buried then what do you do?
it's, probably a sign that you really don't have the authority you need in that general category within Google. So it's. Google really thinks in like category or topical areas. every site tends to have authority in. One area, but not as much authority and others. That's why I like, PC gamer can rank really well with a lot of terms, but they get into other software terms and they struggle, Or QuickSprout ranks really well in certain marketing topics. But then we get into other business areas and we don't do as well, even though the domain score is just off the. Charts, It's a fantastic domain. it's really how much authority do you have in a specific area? Brand new, no bang. If you have a brand new company and most likely just don't have the authority, especially if there's any degree of competition, that's most likely the reason why you're doing Barre, which case you are signing up for the long slog, which I still think is worth it.
That's why I do this pod, for a lot of, scrappy. Small businesses pretty lean on budget, then you're going to have to make some trade offs. And, honestly, my advice for most aspens is, if you're not getting the rankings that you want. Just keep building a business. as you get more customers, as you increase your MRR, as you increase your sales pipeline and your lead gen and you release new features and you do more promotional stuff and writing more content, you will end up building an immense amount of authority.
And that whatever category you have to be in naturally, if you just keep going. So a lot of times the answer is don't force it. This is for a SAS company specifically because you have so many other cars to play in order to grow the business. And then you can come back to content and you've actually discovered, assuming that.
You're building a company in a very specific niche and your contents focused on that niche. You'll end up doing much better over time, just naturally as you build the company. Yeah. There's all sorts of ways to accelerate it and double down and guarantee that you actually move that stuff forward. but it's intense.
It's expensive requires an immense amount of focus. And that would actually make the case that most SAS businesses should not do that. Cause they have other things to worry about churn and product market fit and like honestly marketing and assessments and it doesn't have to be that good. It just needs to be good enough to not be a problem.
There's other things that I'm way more concerned about for SAS, but my business is a hundred percent NCO, so that's why we go crazy with it. And something you mentioned while you were talking about that is, if you rank on the first page, let's say you're number nine or number 10.
That's great. Now you have to work on climbing that first page is that it these days, is that just links? Is it what it's always been? Or how do you, yeah, it's how you. It's content. That's all consented. In my opinion, it's simple, but it's not easy. people like to get really complicated, redirect all of these domains and do all this fancy stuff.
And I'm just like, no, just don't mind. We don't do any of that shit. First size the content one is, and this is the only we do this very differently than most people in programs is that we take the content really seriously. two in two ways. One is, it needs to be super fresh because that's what Google prefers.
In fact, I think their algorithm is overweights restless. It's it's stupid how much it matters, but you can see like you're on a competitive term. if you spend any time, paying really close attention to the search results. And you go look at the, like the dates on when everything was published on competitive terms, everything has been published like within the last week.
that's not actually true, right? everything like those pages has been around for years and years and years, but everyone has realized how much freshness matters. So they like, they have to keep it updated. If you play a really competitive circles, like it becomes a requirement and updating weekly is.
I'm not that's not exaggeration when you actually have to update these things every week. And that's like adding a few paragraphs, adding a new section removed, just,
you do have to update the content. You can't just change the date. Google picks up on that pretty fast, you go fix some typos. You got some extra sentences, you condense things, you clean it up, you Polish it and then reship it. So that's one side, cause the freshmen is, does matter Google, so you always have to be pounding that kind of freshness treadmill.
But the other side that we take really seriously, because we're all. because we focus so heavily on keywords and none of the other promotional stuff, whether it's email or social feeds, that's very calendar driven. You get these pops that come and go, like we don't have an editorial calendar, not a conventional sense.
Like we don't have dates. We don't have any of that nonsense, but we do have posts. And we need to keep those things updated and improvement in quality over time and in a really deliberate way, because we know that we write for a certain term today. We're want to rank for it tomorrow and next month.
And next year and five years from now, like shirts, term volume and search volume does not change in a big ways. It's really consistent, which means we can go really hard. On doubling down on that content and really up leveling it all the time. So like I could go through our update program, what that looks like.
And most content to use would be like, that's insane. Why would you ever do it that way? that's what Google wants and it works. And that's why we do it that way. So one, we always want to be improving our content and to the new there is that freshness component of the algorithm. The other side of everything is you do.
Yeah, go ahead. It sounds like you've got to follow up. Oh, I was just going to ask you talked about content and links and I think a lot of people will say, how do you build Le what do you, what are you doing as a guest posting and linking back? Are you, back in the day, people used to buy links.
Like how do you build links to these days? Yeah, so that is the other big component is the likes. And if you are in a competitive. Category, fundamentally you're going to need lives. And the story doesn't matter. What else you do? You have to find a way to get links. There was a couple of ways to do it, depending on how aggressive you want to be.
Like I said, most SAS businesses. If you just keep really doubling down on your business and just building out like a great blog and doing all that conventional, Content or inbound marketing type stuff. You'll end up getting there, especially as you build a really large business. but like more specifically, what can you do?
I guess posting works. I know Google officially says you shouldn't do it. And, but everybody still does it and it's just be careful with it. Tallaght don't scale it too much, but like a few guest posts here and there. With some very targeted, like one white per post back to you type of deal, that still does work.
and a lot of people do it. And for good reason, you can, there's all sorts of outreach games you can play. so you know, a lot of the popular ones are finding sites with broken links to sites like yours, and then saying, Hey, that page is down at four fours, you have a broken link on your site, Hey, here's a, we just put out this research, this resource would be perfect as a replacement.
You mind changing it to us. There's a bunch of these things. if you just Google around, you'll find all sorts of them. and that's still, that does work that you gotta get pretty intense on the volume now because the response rates were always like, Small, but if you really want to grind your way to links, you end up doing something like that.
So some crazy guest posting program, some crazy outreach program. as far as buying links, I would tell everyone to never do that, do not do that. I've been in this space a long time and I don't trust anybody to build links. Fucking they'll fucking, if it's actually the one way you can destroy a site, If you build bad links and you do it wrong, you can totally kill all of your search authority.
So the risk here is super high. You got to be really authentic and really careful with how you do it. That's why guest posting, like you can really keep control of it and make it like very legitimate. And not get into any gray water with Google, same thing with outreach. Like you can still do outreach stuff.
That's legitimate. And is that in value and yeah, any outreach or cold email, a little spammy shore, but you still find tricks and angles where you are actually adding value, like trying to fix some likes. are you doing this self-serving way? Sure. But yeah, you're also trying to fix the link on the site, right?
So it's, there is some value that you're contributing. They're buying links. If you have some vendor or some agency or someone doing that for you, they're not going to do any of that. We're going to find the fastest sketchiest way. It gets you, whatever lead volume that you just purchased. And then they're going to move on to the next client and you do too much of that for too long and you will kill your domain.
So just stay away from that. I don't even touch it. I believe I have the expertise to actually evaluate these folks and I don't find anyone that I actually trust and do it. So I just stay away from it entirely wise words, sir, we are over time. Now we do have a, another question, but I think maybe I will answer it in Slack afterwards.
Really appreciate you taking time today, sir. And folks want to act online. Yeah. are you on Twitter? Are you Lars Lofgren on Twitter? Yeah, Laura's locked that Laura's lock grip. You can find me. It's a very quiet account. So would you follow me? Don't expect any active content, but if you ever want hit me up, that's a good way.
Sounds great, man. Thanks again. Hope to see you in person, maybe in 2021, assuming great to see at a microphone for something. All right. Thanks Rob. All right, we are wrapping up for today. Yay. Thanks for joining us and thank you as always to hae and Stripe for supporting MicroComp. We love having them aboard our 2020 headline partners.
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